So tell me about those Women’s rights.
I was watching a show on Egyptian TV the other day, it was hosted by Mahmoud 3saili I think, Anyways, he was talking about Women’s rights and equality with men in Egypt, and how has the Woman’s role in society evolved. And he was interviewing random Women and Men off the street, Asking them about their opinion on the issue, Naturally most of the women demanded equality with Man in General and that Women should be allowed to do everything that a man does, While some expressed that the Woman’s natural place is at home raising her children and being a good Housewife, Some Men agreed with that, while on the other hand some Men demanded equality with Women stating that Women have even more rights than the Man.
Which brings forth the big Question, What exactly are these rights that Women are demanding they have? and How exactly isn’t she equal to the Man in these times, Lets take Jordan for example, You will find women in all walks of life doing everything that a man does, From doctors to lawyers to engineers to government employees to pilots to even Taxi drivers. and at all respectable establishments, government offices and large companies Women get the exact same pay the man does, The woman owns property and cars, she even has the right to divorce her husband. she has the right to vote, and the right to education same as the Man. Women have been appointed at high ranking positions in the state such as Ministers and even in the private sector they have climbed up the ladder into CEO’s and the such.
Indeed, Women may even have more rights that the Man, such as the 30 day paternity leave or so that the Woman gets, Of course there will be always some Jobs that are just not fit for women, Do Women want to work on construction sites, lifting Cement and Iron bars to be thought of as equal? Or at the Amman municipality picking up garbage? I don’t think so, Nor do we accept it, out of respect for her, for a woman should be dignified.
So, What are the Women’s rights feminists demanding exactly? What exactly are those rights that Women are deprived off?
January 30th, 2008 at 8:11 am
are you jealous from us?? Yes we do have more rights and in Islam we are dignified yet some people abuse this from both genders… some people just take things to the maximum..
January 30th, 2008 at 8:50 am
*hides*
This is going to be a bloody massacre …
Ra7amatallah 3alaik ya bakkouz
January 30th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Chika: Jealous? perhaps :razz:
Qwaider: Wala Massacre wala ishi, Its just a simple question, I’m curious ya3ni :D
January 30th, 2008 at 9:09 am
please take some pictures of your face… it will probably be the last time you will be recognisable
January 30th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Bakkouz, you take Jordan as an example but you only concentrate on the rights of working women, and not all women in Jordan. Most women in Jordan do not work.
Both women and men should take maternity and paternity leaves to take care of a newborn baby. However, what justifies the longer maternity leave is the physical weariness and perhaps even health complications that a woman goes through after delivery. In Jordanian law, women get 70-90 days off work after delivery, and that is not enough!
With all the rhetoric about women having a natural tendency to be caring of babies, 90 days is rubbish really. In other states, women get a lot more off (up to two years, I think I heard) and their time off is fully-paid. But of course, since in Jordan 3inna el wlad 3afeg, be7amlona jmeeleh 3al 90 days. Therefore, the percentage of working women in the private sector is like 15% (read that somewhere 2 days ago) because employers will not hire them because of this leave. Such hypocrisy!
But that’s not my issue here. Like I said, both the man and the woman should take time off to take care of the baby, and not just the woman.
Another point is this: single women in Jordan cannot apply to “adopt” kids. Raped women in Jordan are not given the attention fitting of rape victims, because society has a demented image of these women as being damaged goods, a shame, etc, and so their families prefer to hide the problem than deal with it. This is another right that should be asserted for women in Jordan: the right of proper care, the right of being thought human beings equal to men in society.
In addition to that, women in Jordan do not all have the right of education equally to men. If a woman gets a scholarship abroad, her father most likely will prevent her from leaving. Where is it in Jordanian law that this right is protected for the woman? If she was a son instead of a daughter, the father would gladly send her off. You see the difference?
Where is it in Jordanian law that a girl should NOT be married before 18? How come a Jordanian woman’s children of a foreign father do not enjoy Jordanian nationality unlike the children of a Jordanian man married to a foreign woman? Why is it that the children of a woman cannot inherit their maternal grandfather while the children of the man can? There is A LOT to be said about women’s rights in Jordan, my friend.
Naturally, not all the women in Jordan suffer these injustices (unless the injustices are mandated by law, like the nationality and inheritance clauses) and that’s the reason why women’s organizations are working hard to protect women’s rights to help the undereducated and the underprivileged be aware of their rights, and to lobby to have them instilled in our law so nobody can deny them.
My comment is becoming very long. To sum it all up, the idea is that men’s rights are asserted by our patriarchal society, if not by our law. Women’s rights, on the other hand, are not. This is why the law should protect them.
If men want to write up their rights, then by all means, they can. Who’s stopping them?! The truth is, they don’t need to write them down. Do you get the picture now?
January 30th, 2008 at 9:23 am
Hahahahahah, Bakkouz. Did you notice you asked what women are depraved of rather than deprived of??? Kinda Freudian. :)
I’m not a feminist. I do believe men and women are equal in value but for the most part, do their own gender thing better than the other. I’ve hung sheet-rock in construction and waitressed. I’ve stood my ground with corrupt real estate brokers who tried to run me over, and used a smile to gt out of a traffic ticket. I have all the rights I need in the West, i don’t go along with feminists who just want to demasculinize men to prove their value.
In the Middle East, I believe women’s testimony should have the same value as a man’s. As much as women are given to emotional swings, men are just given to the emotion of anger that sways their judgement (think crimes of honor).
I believe a woman is best at raising kids, but needs an emotionally engaged strong father to complement their rearing so moms dont’ manipulate kids.
Women in the West had to word hard to get their voices heard. Unfortunately, it’s not working here. For what ever reason, the ingrained concept that a woman is worth half a man is a brick wall no woman can break through alone. Men will have to use their strength to raise women up in this part of the world.
I fear they won’t, because many like it this way and are afraid of an empowered woman. If they could only know, that an empowered woman can re-empower them and raise them up to be their own very best. I believe men make the best leaders, when they are tempered with a value for female opinion.
As long as both genders live at their lowest level of violent domination and subversive manipulation, there is no hope for equality, and I believe, will hinder progress in the Middle East.
Hah! No blood! the keyboard is truly mightier than the sword.
January 30th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Bakkouz, you come back with a bang, don’t you?! A very appropriate topic and I’m so glad you are asking the questions. I hope more ladies raised in Jordan will answer from their perspective.
I wanted to second thoughts from both Tololy and Kinzi. Also, I feel like maybe we need to make a distinction between legal rights and social rights (or norms) as Tololy’s examples fall into both categories. In the US, we’ve been a long time looking towards women’s rights and it’s taken what 50 years to move from the legislation to the “hearts and minds” stage. In other words, passing a law (if it is enforced) is only a way to regulate what someone does outwardly, not what they think inwardly (in their hearts and minds).
Both ladies provide excellent examples of way where women have far to go in the legislative rights department. In fact, I’ll go one step further and say that everyone (men and women) should have the right to leave their hard earned inheritance to anyone they want. If my son has a good job and my daughters need the money more, I should be able to leave it all to them. Certainly, they should at least split the inheritance 3 ways (or am I supposed to love my girls less and therefore be happy that they receive less?). This is one reason I’m glad that El 3atal and I have most of our retirement savings in the US. At least there it should be administered according to US law (and my will), not Jordanian law. My will remains there, although I know it won’t apply to our assets here…
Also, do you think that a sign of women’s “equal” rights is provided by the fact that my husband can file a paper with the government saying that his wife can’t leave the country? Not that most would ever do this, but it rather bothers me that it is his legal right. And even more so that she can’t file the same paper to keep him home-bound (quick way to end his traveling days, no?)
Also, the laws surrounding honor killing are clearly not treating women as equals in society. Well, unless if I go kill my son because he has been sleeping around and I would get a very light sentence because of my emotional distress over his dishonoring the family. The legal system often follows the social one and as long as women are the only responsible parties and guardians of their honor (the dishonor is only on the woman not the man), you will continue to have areas where the rghts are not equal.
But, I’m awfully glad you’re asking the question. It requires men like you to think about these topics, to explore the answers, to begin a change. I’d like to hear your thoughts as well.
And, welcome back from the Dead Sea (and the dead, I hear).
January 30th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Indeed, you do find (Jordanian) women in all walks of life doing everything a man does.
(In Jordan) the breakdown between the sexes is roughly 52% men, and 48% women. This breakdown you do not see back in all the walks of life you mention: women are underrepresented.
For example take a look at the previous elections in Jordan. While 199 women were candidates, that was only 22% of all the candidates; then only 7 were elected for the 110 seats available, that is, less than 1%.
Only 10 countries in the world (mostly Nordic countries) have a representative number of women in both cabinet and parliament. Gender inequality is seen all around the world.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Bakkouz
Asabt Kabed el 7akeka…
specially that most of the (So Called) feminists, are dividing the society into two separate camps, like there is an absolute truth in here…
the all evil men’s camp
the pure and innocent with no rights at all… Women’s camp
but there is one defect in their theories in here…
aren’t they the ones who put their selves in a place like this ( below men as they always say)… since they are the ones who raise men, according to their theory also…
January 31st, 2008 at 12:09 am
Err, el 3abeet, not true. If feminists raised ALL men, they would treat women in a much better way and the two genders will be equal. Try again.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I didn’t read the previous comments, so don’t know if they already mentioned this.
First off, women cannot pass on their nationality to their kids.
Second it may seem to you and me that all women in jordan are getting their education, but i’m not so sure about that. there are a lot of extra conservative families that don’t allow that.
and don’t get me started on the honor killing law…
as a female myself, i thank God for my loving parents, especially after meeting a lot of other girls who might have food and clothes but are also treated like idiots.
In summary not all what femals are asking for have to do with the law and rights, some of it is related to the community and the way femals are treated even inside their homes.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Well, Bakkouz, if we’re going to focus on Jordan - there is still some legislature there that, in the eyes of many, needs to be re-vamped.
There are also issues of basic humanity. Here’s a personal example: as a Slavic woman, I am routinely assumed to be a plaything and property. It’s hurtful, despiriting, and yes, dehumanizing as well.
A relative was assaulted by a man (sadly enough, he was Arab) who believed that women like her exist purely for his pleasure. Once again, she wasn’t a human being to him.
If you look at a place like the Democratic Republic of Congo - you will hear stories of gang-rapes committed against both women and little girls. These victims are then shamed and ostracized from their communities.
I could go on and on with many examples, from all over the world, from people I know and people I’ve never met, all day long.
Now, I don’t think that men are inherently worse than women or any such baloney. To wit, what about male rape victims? They’re not even spoken about. Another relative of mine (a lot of sad stories in my family, unfortunately) was raped by a known criminal when he was just 11 years old. He saw no justice. He couldn’t even ask for justice - because he knew that he would be labelled as “damaged goods.”
Male rape victims can’t even speak to other men about what happened to them. If they do speak - they go to the women. Because women understand, due to the greater risk factors in our lives, just how pervasive rape and the threat of rape truly is. The fact that society judges the victims makes rape all the more damaging. THAT is something that needs to be changed - in ALL parts of the world.
So, you see, for as long as these issues keep coming up, women will keep talking, and complaining, and yes, demanding. Now, I’ve been lucky enough to work alongside men on many of these problems. This isn’t a woman-only issue, imho.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:46 pm
@Natalia - you are making a good point: if we consider prison male rape, there are far more males being raped than women, but nobody talks about it, because prison rape is funny.
@backkouz - i will check if “nofollow” is present and if it’s not, I’ll add your blog to the We Follow database.
February 1st, 2008 at 4:01 am
Physically men and women are different, so its so untrue to have this blind equality between them, may be the debate is on: women in Leadership or women as presidents, directors, mangers and owners of great companies, or is it just a trend that we started in the 20th century after worldwarII , going back to history, yes that was the when those movements started to defend women rights , because women worked in military industries , they had to work 16-18 hours a day, and exposed to other miserable things that we don’t accept it.
So what is the source of this disapproval why do we think that women has to be respected and defended ? Is it religion , Culture , traditions , rules ,heritage … fairy tales !! or maybe their fragile body, actually many recent studies published that women are more resistant than men , Estrogen which is a female hormone is a protective hormone , thats why you see that life expectancy for women is higher in 5 years or more, and that’s why women get older when they are menopausee, and on the other hand I dont mean that women were born with houshold hormones that drive their body to work at home and clean and cook, on the contrary ,this life in which all the abilities and facilities are made so easy to both genders to become similar in labor force, gave us ( men and women ) the opportunity to work together and share new ideas and perspectives that men usually miss or ignore ,but where is the limit ? women are wives or workers or both, which one has the priority? And women in leadership these are sources of this endless debate.
In conclusion I see this controversial issue from different perspective, I would rather prefer to take it as individual cases I mean by that each woman is an individual case herself , we cant generalize that all women want to work , all women want to be leaders ( as many men don’t want ) , but I think most of the women would prefer to have a family and well established and stable relationship and children to raise and take care of , that doesn’t mean that they don’t work or do their role in the society as an productive agent.
anyway its not complicated issue nor simple one, many thoughts but I say that mose of these calls for women empowerment and women rights are coming from women who went into leadership world and felt that the rest of the women need to see this world of freedom and authority . I think every woman can speak for herself and see what is the best for her ..
finaly I want you to think what if we have this men rights calls, what if some men liked the idea of having their women work and they stay at home raising children and cooking,(I bet its easier than working in construction) and they started to have calls for men rights to live at home with their children, waking up late , marinating their beauty, going to the gym and cooking nice food …To be continued
February 1st, 2008 at 9:41 am
Bakkouz, can I copy some of this into my blog?
February 1st, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Sami, interesting perspective. By the way, as far as I am aware, there are no legal restrictions barring men from staying home in Jordan and taking care of the kids. In the US, the idea of Mr. Mom, although fully societally accepted works very well for many families. It des, in fact, happen. I do take some issue with the idea that each woman should ahve to individually fight for rights. They shoudl fight for what they want, but should be given the (at least) legal right to have it…
Bakkouz, you still haven’t weighed in. What’s up with that? On a break agan? Playing in the snow? (Oh wait you didn;t get any did you?)
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:20 pm
couldnt delete this entry. please do so.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:24 pm
honestly are you telling me that women are 100% equal in rights with men??? to start with, in jordan, women are considered half citizens as they cannot give the citizenship to their non-jordanian husbands and in
consequence their children. a jordanian man’s wife, on the other hand, can get her citizenship after as little as 3 months. and how about the so-called honor crimes? a law which gives any man who kills a female relative a loophole to stay out of prison?! in 95% of the cases, the female victim was never involved in an ‘adulterous’ situation. and can you tell me a woman who wants to divorce her husband can do so with the same ease as the man? how about custody? did you know children after the age of 10 are automatically turned over to the husband in case of divorce or separation? the list goes on and on so i really find it rediculous for you to claim that women are getting more rights than men. when men develop the natural ability to breastfeed i will gladly file a petition demanding a praternity leave. till then…
p.s a woman working at a construction site, or a garbage collector is much more dignified than one sitting at home dependent on her husband.
February 6th, 2008 at 3:09 am
Tololy, your example of the education gap between men and women is one of the fair examples of inequality, and is probably related (in Jordan at least) to why a lot of women don’t work. I dislike parents who choose not to give their daughters a higher education (university). Although I totally disagree with this statement:
“the idea is that men’s rights are asserted by our patriarchal society”.
About Juul quoting representation in parliment as an example of inequality, this ceased to be a valid example the minute women gained the right to vote. If they choose not to run for office as often, that is their business, if they don’t get elected, too bad. What is unfair is setting quotas for women being elected where they require less votes. Who says men look out for other men just because most of the law makers are men ? It’s just not true, we give no preference to our gender in generating the laws, in fact some laws will be biased in favor of women, and some in favor of men (like Jordanian passport laws, or Islamic inheritance laws).
One of the measures of inequality feminists will often quote is salary for a particular type of job, but this is misleading, how can you compare two people working at different companies just because they have the same job title. That kind of comparison based on pay can only be done when all other things are equal.
Treatment of female Rape and sexual abuse victims , and so called crimes of honor are among the worst violations of women’s rights in Jordan.
Another unfair example of inequality is percent of women enrolled in Engineering/Medicine degrees in universities. This has nothing to do with inequality. The rate of women applying to enroll in those fields is lower. This is by choice, and not social injustice. Again some universities will more easily accept women (and visible minorities) into these specialties as a means of correcting a precieved injustice. Nonesense, this view of women as victims is part of what keeps them from being equal. Equality can also be measured in responsibilty, and not only priviliges.
About the rights that women often have, but in most countries, men don’t, I can think of a couple:
- Paid Maternity leave (in some countries it’s 6 months)
- Being allowed to bring their handbag into a store
- Concentrating on Marriage as an alternative to a career
- Automatically getting custody of the children on divorce
- Legal advantage in court for being automatically assumed to be victims.
- The “ladies first” mentality being part of gentlemanly conduct.
February 8th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
thanks for posting
May 28th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Since several years ago, in my country the family is allowed to decide which one of the family members wishes to stay home with the child and get paid. The paid child care period is two years, regardless if the person who takes it is the mother or the father. However, I don’t know too many fathers who took advantage of this law. Maybe because they don’t see this situation fit for them. It’s just like women wouldn’t accept some job categories.