~ Marriage in the West
The thought of writing about this came to me while reading Qwaider’s post Marriage Made in heaven, it would seem that marriage in the west, especialy in the U.S has lost is true meaning, we see couples living together for years even have children together before they consider the notion of marriage, that is if they consider it at all, which brings forth the main question, What is the defenition of Marriage in the west these days?
Now before you read on let it be known that i have not lived in the states nor do i have solid evidence or concrete knowledge of this subject, i merely rely on what i see/hear/read in the Media.
So, What is Marriage? Is it a means to consumate the relationshiop between the man and the woman? is it just a legal contract between two people with their relevent authorities be that the state or god? is it just a way to get more tax benefits? a social purpose, which is to define ownership status to a couple of people. don’t fool with this woman, she belongs to this man. he has “taken her to be HIS lawfully wedded wife” and vice versa, or is it merely a public proclamation of love?
Divorce rates are increasing and the reason is unclear, do they not beleive in the sanctity of marriage anymore? does it even still exist? are the women’s rights groups a major factor in this? i quote from Qwaider’s post:
“…as the lady herself said that in recent years, western women (sans Latin) have grown more and more aggressive due to a good climate of rules and regulations that favor women over men in many of the aspects of marriage, divorce, custody, welfare, child support, alimony and the list goes on
She continued to say that, apparently what women’s rights groups in the west have succeeded in doing over the past fifty or so years was to get the woman equal rights, on top of the traditional rights that they used to enjoy tipping the balance a little bit more in their favor. And continued, it’s the best time in history to be a woman…”
Perhaps this is a factor, but is it the only factor? marriage is basicaly a religious concept, and people moving away from religion has further helped the demolition of the concept of marriage, marriage has become just a ritual, a means to celebreate and add some romance and drama to the relationship rather than actualy serve its main true purpose which is the consumation of the love and relationship shared between the man and the woman, and what about the whole “till death do us part” principal? does it mean anything anymore?
It’s all too confusing..oh well, maybe marriage is after all a complete waste of time :)
June 1st, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Well. till death do us part?! Interessting topic, You tell me Bakkouz, I am not Mrs yet, shall be that soon, Therefore I feel it is important to comment..
So I will suggest this *Scenario?* And you fill me in later if Marriage has to be so sacred that you get ONE CHANCE and thats it! Scary,…
what if you married this girl that you were so in love with since High school times, and after 5 years together, u realise life has no meaning anymore, You & her have grown apart, your sex life sucks, she is constantly nagging and you are always escaping the house to avoid her. As for her, she patronises you infront of friends, doesn’t show pride that youre her man, she dicusses finance and house-hold necessities, compares your contribution to her friends’ contribution each and every time they purchase something new. She tells you off and perhaps doesn’t prioritise you anymore.. I mean ppl change, life change..
So, till death do us part NOW is perhaps NOT the promise you wish to keep!
We are young, social, flirty.. every person can like/love a variety of individiuals, if you were too hasty/passionate.. call it whatever, and later discovered that, hmhm, I ain’t so happy, I don’t want to spend each day in my life with this person…. Foolish mistake, that anyone can do! Shall we sacrifise our life for that??? Well I wouldn’t. We are not perfect..
June 1st, 2006 at 4:05 pm
Marriage is a committment to have a shared life together. It is NOT about liking what you have so much that you want to somehow keep it and freez it. People do change, but people can also change together. The problem with a lot of couples who don’t think long term is that they get married using the wrong foundation.
I repeat: Marriage is not about what you feel for that person at this moment. It’s about knowing that you are compatible for the long term, and it’s about a mutual determination to form a family. THAT is the right foundation that can stand the test of time.
As for stories of passion and wanton love, you can keep that for the movies and romance novels. They are what feelings are meant to be: perishable. It is nice to have loving feelings for each other, but that shouldn’t be the only reason why you’re getting married.
June 1st, 2006 at 4:18 pm
I’m a western woman (for all intents and purposes) with a live-in boyfriend, and marriage to me is basically a big party you throw when you can afford it. I don’t think the institution in of itself is what’s important. It’s the human relationships that we have to treasure.
I don’t need a piece of paper to declare my love and commitment to the man in my life, and the only two reasons that we want to spend money on a wedding in the future have to do with legal issues and making our parents happy. That’s it.
As for western women being more aggressive, it’s not about that. It’s about the legal and social issues that allow things such as rape, abuse, and violence to actually be reported and prosecuted in the United States, Europe, Canada, et al. The institution of marriage was never perfect, but now we’re actually coming out and talking about it, and prosecuting the offenders.
Tipping rights in our favour? That’s bull. Most mainstream feminist factions want nothing more, or less, than equal rights and protection under the law. The fact that South Dakota is trying to make abortion a crime again shows you how long a way we have to go.
June 1st, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Yes Natalie, You enforce what i said perfectly :)
And Lina, In my openion, marriage is a life time commitment, its not a “habit” you take on when it suits you and just drop when it doesn’t, sure there will be disagreements and problems but thats marriage, its a give and take process, So i agree with Mustaopha on this.
June 1st, 2006 at 6:11 pm
I’[m an American who has been married to another one for 15 years. We made a commitment before God to stay together for better or for worse, through obesity or addiction, through exhaustion from toddlers or miscarriage, through the too-cute secretary syndrome and the mom-starts working syndrome, through boring-sex times and sizzling times.
We did it not only because we love each other, but because we love God and believe that He ordained marriage not so much to make us happy, but to make us holy. That each time we ‘lay down our life’ for the other, we grow in maturity, wisdom, and closeness to God. We did not live together, and also chose not to have sex or any other form of intimacy but goodnight kisses before our wedding day. I highly recommend it.
Not many Americans believe this way anymore, in giving love with selfless abandon as Jesus Christ taught. Americans, for the most part, have abandoned anything that costs them anything or doesn’t give immediate and perfect gratification. And it will be the end of our nation. Watch and learn, Jordan.
June 1st, 2006 at 7:05 pm
You know.. Lina, I find your comment extremely disturbing and disgusting at the same time. If I were your fiance I wouldn’t trust you based on your ideas.
Some people are too stupid to understand the till death do us apart or for better or worse concept. It’s not scary, this is a freakin commitment you make. You don’t make a commitment by dropping it in couple of years because “Life has no meaning” boo hoo hoo… Grow the fuck up! Marriage is all about commitment, sacrifice, mutual respect and a lot o patience. The minute you wear that ring, is the minute you STOP living for yourself, and start living for the couple, and later on the family, that’s why it’s a holy bond. That’s what marriage is.
You know, it saddens me when I see people like Natalia, who lives with her boyfriend, but understand what marriage is more than you. She’s in what is called a common law marriage and whether she likes it or not, considered to be married, the piece of paper, means nothing. That’s one of the major successes in the west, that in her case, she can demand alimony and child support ..etc ..etc if something happens and they had kids and break up. And I find that just and fair. If you make ‘em [kids] you’re responsible for em!
“Sex life sucks !!” And that would take you 5 years to realise it!!? You disgust me seriously as the lowest type of women that no man would ever want to be with.
Were you even in your right mind when you wrote that!
Young and flirty!! GOD You’re MARRIED! MARRIED! When you’re married you full focus is the house the institution you’re in, Marriage is NOT a stepping stone to something better that you think you as “young and flirty” is OK to move into. God, what a disgusting notion! Imagine if a guy came and said, yeah I’m married but I like to fool around on the side till I find a better wife! absolutely appalling by all means (And I consider my self too much of a liberal)
What’s making me upset is that you’re stating these as [acceptable] grounds to “move on”. YOU and the likes of you are the reason such a high divorce rate exists!
Let me give you an eye opening idea.. ALL you mentioned above, happen in a perfectly normal marriage. I’ll leave this to married women to answer. and NO divorce is not a solution nor would you live better because with such a mentality, you’re going to repeat everything again, but on the good side, it will not take you 5 more years to know that your sex life sucks!…
June 1st, 2006 at 8:07 pm
Actually, I reside in North Carolina, where common law marriage is not recognized until 5 or 10 years of living together (can’t remember which at the moment).
If we move to Canada next year, however, I’ll be a common law wife right away. ;) And hey, I don’t have to pay for a wedding at the Savoy just because of Canada’s laws, so I’m fine with that.
I don’t understand why you’re being hard on Lina. It’s her personal life. Some people aren’t made for long commitments, others grow into them over time. It’s not one-size fits all. The fact that people think it is is the reason why divorce rates are climbing in the first place.
Who knows? Maybe in five years my own relationship will fall apart. Nobody is immunized from failure. I’m young and flirty too, and if anyone thinks I’ve never turned my head for a good-looking other man, well, they’d be awfully naive.
I would wish Lina good luck in figuring out what she wants. That’s it.
June 1st, 2006 at 9:06 pm
I’m not too hard, look the fact of the matter is simple. If you get into a marriage, your first and most important objective is for it to work regardless of any hardships that might come through
Quote me on the following:
“Marriage is not a bus stop, you can’t get into it expecting to take the next bus out. Marriage is the destination, and everything else is means to get to that destination”
If we go into marriage with the mentality, “I’m young”, “I’m flirty”, “I can do better” then trust me, that marriage is doomed to failure even before it starts.
However, IF you let your significant other understand this, then BY ALL MEANS, if someone accepts to be a bus stop, it’s their choice. But at least, give them the choice. Not lead them to believe it’s for ever, and ask them to make an investment that you know you’re going to forfeit in few years. It’s deceitful, shameful, it’s immoral and it’s unethical.
I find it very disturbing that there are two balances for men and women in this case. If a Man was to say this about his upcoming marriage, what would you call him!?
June 1st, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Deleted Upon Authors’ request.
June 1st, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Sorry for the long post, my intention was to quote, 1,2 sentences each time, but apparently I did something wrong.. You might want to dlete it Bakkouz, coz here is what I inteneded to put up.
Thanx Natalia for trying to see things through my perspective and acknowledging the fact that we really are different as humans, we lead our lives as it apeals to us. BE IT SINGLE, MARRIED, LIVING TOGETHER, DIVORCEE, ETC.
as for Mr-Hisham Abbas
“You know.. Lina, I find your comment extremely
disturbing and disgusting at the same time. If
I were your fiance I wouldn’t trust you based
on your ideas”
Well, It really amuses me that you believe you can judge how I am as a person, even comment on how my Fiance should feel towards me,based on a few sentences above, which by the way are acurate to me, neverthless, I have 100 more opinions, if I would put them up, your opinion of me would vary each time! So, my meaning is you cannot judge me simply because you read a thought of mine!
It would be useful for you to become more humble, and think of others’ opinions as well instead of trying to force your own, and beleive that its the ONLY way to go. Each individual has thier own way of understanding matters. Luckily thats the reason we marry a person who we beleive matches us. Perhaps I am not the kind of girl that stays if the road gets rocky 300 days a year, And I am selfish, I like having a good time, I wouldn’t sacrifice much of my own happiness, So what? I still love my man, enjoy our time together, He knows I can be selfish & self absorbed yet he chooses to be with me. So shall I not marry cause I admit my weaknesses? I do not lie and say, oh yeah; We’ll always stay together no matter what? No, Thats not me.. Yeah, sorry to cause you nausea then, but we are different.
“Sex life sucks! And that would take you 5
years to realise it!!? You disgust me
seriously as the lowest type of women that
no man would ever want to be with.”
I wouldn’t like to patronise you with similar words you chose to describe me with, it is not a habbit of mine, however, you must know that it certainly does not take you FIVE YEARS to realise this, but things DO change over time.
I would appreciate it if you could get a hold of your feelings in the future and show some understanding that we are all different, Your idea of a great marriage, meal, outing is certainley not same as everybody else. Yet it doesn’t mean you’re allowed to be disrespectful cause things do not exactly follow your path.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
June 2nd, 2006 at 12:06 am
Sorry Bakkouz for turning this into a mine field, but I hope you would allow one more incursion
Dear Mrs Fifi abdo
You know, before talking about humility and understanding, maybe you need to come to realize that this has nothing to do with the appalling remarks you made. When people vow “in sickness and health” they recognize the nature of the world and how things do change. I’m just glad that you recognize the fact that you’re selfish, and your fiancé “god bless his soul” is going to suffer one day because of your selfishness.
The minute you put that ring on, you’re supposed to forget that you’re working for the good of the one, and that you’re working for the good of the family.
By the way, Allow me to clarify something to you and to everyone, my remarks would have been even harsher if you were a man, because such loser idiology makes so many people suffer. A marriage is built on two people that function as one. They put aside thier selfishness and focus on getting there together. Unfortunately, selfish marriages are doomed before they even start. Ending up with hatred and misery for at least 1 of the two and the kids if there are any
And YES, people are different, Some follow morals, some lack them. Some can lie, steal and cheat, and some don’t. I understand that people are different, I just don’t have to excuse the ill nature of a behavior because people are “different”. And when I said something is low and disgusting, that wasn’t an option, that was a fact!
A little piece of advice, Why do you even want to marry? Since it’s just a little detour along the way, then, spare yourself and the other poor soul the misery and don’t marry him.
You Either marry for the long haul … or you don’t. Plain and simple.
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:14 am
I completely agree with what Lina has to say. Marriage is not (and should never be) a copntract that you can’t cancel. That’s why there’s an invention called a “divorce”! Of course you go into the marriage wanting it to work out. You put your heart and sould into it. You try to overcome any obstacles. But if it doesn’t work, you should not be stuck in a meaningless partnership just because you are expected to do so.
As for Bakkouz’ points on marriage in the west, I think it’s a much more honest approach than the one we have in the Middle East. It’s because the focus is on the relationship itself, and not on the ritual and the societal expectations. Look at how many miserable marriages people in our part of the world get themselves into, just because it’s time to get married. Look at how many unhappy couples continue with their marriage because they don’t want to face the stigma of being called divorced. I think a great relationship without the marriage paper is worth a million times more than an unhappy marriage that is there just because of society.
As for this guy’s Kuwaidar’s response to Lina, I thought it was disgusting. What is it to him how another person feels and applies in her life. Just and ignorant judgemental prick.
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:52 am
Typical close minded blinded by the west response. You know the first part of your comment, was fine and I was about to commend you on it. Then you turned the issue to something only a stupid superficial Arab guy would say.
No kid, it’s not true, marriages in the west are neither more successful nor happier. And one day when(if) you grow up, you will understand that
Now you’re going to back lash at me in anger, it’s so cool to respond back in an anonymous way Husam, huh? I call this drive by commenting.
If I could borrow a word from a good friend of mine, she would say, “Takhalof”. You people know absolutely nothing about marriage neither in the east nor the west!
If any of you had a clue, they would know that Love and Marriage are a lot of hard work, patience, compromise, sacrifice, even when the going gets tough. Not ditch ship at the first sing of raindrops…
Oh by the way, I EARNED my right to judge sycophants like you, trying to get a bone, trust me you’ll only get the boot. At least I had the courage to have MY NAME and my EAMIL and my Web address there, You know where I live.
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Ahh, a hot topic with a variety of opinions, the very best sort. As an American, I think the idea that everyone in the West (America in particular) is not getting married is simplistic and not based on reality. I will state that it is more common. People live together for different reasons. Some choose to because they want to “try it out” and determine if they are compatible. Perhaps this approach would be better for those who think maybe a year or two down the line I’ll want to change people. Some choose to because their plans are made, but financially they have to wait on the wedding.
I’ll be married ten years this July and know that if I went into this relationship with the idea that if things went bad I’d be getting out, we’d be destined to fail. I agree that if you are making a lifetime commitment (and clearly not everyone is), you shoudl make a lifelong commitment. If not, you should (in the US) go to the Justice of the Peace and have a simple little “for now” wedding. That way there’s no confusion. No religious ceremony to imply a death-do-you-part mentality. Oh, and in the US, common law marriage is more complex than simply living together. It typically requires that the parties introduce each other as their spouse in addition to the time requirement. One more thing, in the US, the tax laws are against you rather than for you when you get married… common misconception.
So, while I personally think that there should be a lifetime commitment, as long as the partners agree, whatever is fine. But, save the money and energy and don’t do the whole big wedding scene unless you really mean it. And, know that the media representation of the US is no more accurate and full a picture than that of the Middle East.
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:19 pm
It must be difficult being you! Stop attacking ppl and see this for what it is. A blogg where the author chooses a topic and we comment and share ideas.. Being rude gains you nothing
June 2nd, 2006 at 6:15 pm
That’s the smartest thing you’ve said all day. Yeah, it’s pretty hard being me. It takes years, so much effort and dedication to be me :)
Oh and and about the being rude part, trust me, I was being extra gentle all things considered.
Now to return the favor, It must be really easy being you, it’s probably so easy that it’s, a NO BRAINER!
Enjoy the rest of your life
June 2nd, 2006 at 11:33 pm
It has been brought to my attention that Lina is upset because I made her sound like a total bitch.
Now I would like to apologize that this is not my intention, and never was my intention. My intention was kind of like Tough-love kind of educational experience where I would “beat” some sense into her using “shock-and-awe” tactics, but apparently, I might have got her off the point and onto being mad about the feeling it self.
Well, It’s too late now, what is done is done, My points are clear. I proudly defend the sanctity of love and marriage, which are two distinct things. But I would also prefer not to make people think it’s an all out war on THEM personally rather their ideas.
Anyway, Lina, if you feel it was directed personally to you, I apologize, not my intention
Hassan if you think it’s directed against you personally, then damn right it is dumb prick!
January 18th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Well folks, before you read my post any further please see what he(mustapha)says. That’s so true, and one must not deny this fact.
mustapha:says
=======================================================
Marriage is a committment to have a shared life together. It is NOT about liking what you have so much that you want to somehow keep it and freez it. People do change, but people can also change together. The problem with a lot of couples who don’t think long term is that they get married using the wrong foundation.
I repeat: Marriage is not about what you feel for that person at this moment. It’s about knowing that you are compatible for the long term, and it’s about a mutual determination to form a family. THAT is the right foundation that can stand the test of time.
=======================================================
What I believe:
One MUST realize, and understand with complete maturity is that “Marriage is sacred, and it must be nurtured and saved regardless of UPs and DOWNs”. So don’t enter if you don’t understand correctly. Think it is a life-time committment.
If you are not matured enough to undersand the meaning of a ‘marriage’, then don’t marry for wrong reasons.
Continue to live whatever the life-style you want.
It’s upto you because, you are entitled to have your own choice and freedom in life.
So don’t try to find faults after you marry someone, instead try to make it successful “Till death do us part!”, and prove yourself as a true man or a woman in your life-time and leave your legacy for others to follow.
There’s no need to debate or fight, all we need is a simple understanding and maturity to know what is the meaning of MARRIAGE.
MY ADVICE:
FISRT:
——-
Find out the true meaning of “MARRIAGE”.
SECOND:
——-
Find that person “THE ONE”, that you would love to live for the rest of your life, with equal amount of committment who also understands the meaning of “MARRIAGE”.
If not, then just LIVE the way you want to live for the rest of your life - who cares…, ofcourse you must learn to care about yourself.
There’s a tremendous JOY when both love eachother and face UPs and DOWNs in life. Stand together against all odds - that’s a marriage.
I am not sure, how many of you are willing to agree with me, but this is what I know for myself.
I am still single(age 35) and trying to find THE ONE, and when I find THE ONE I will marry for good reasons.
Sincerely,
John.